A Conversation with Moncef Marzouki

New York Feb. 13, 2002

Moncef Marzouki is one of Tunisia's most prominent human rights leaders. He served as President of the Tunisian League for Human Rights(LTDH) between 1989 and 1994, just in time to see President Zine el Abidine Ben Ali's short-lived democratic experiment turn sour. As a vocal critic of Ben Ali's slide into dictatorship, Dr. Marzouki has been the target of increasing governmental repression. In 1992 the LTDH was forced to suspend operations under governmental pressure. In 1994 he was imprisoned for "the propagation of false news," after he had criticized human rights conditions in Tunisia and presented himself as a candidate in presidential elections. After serving four months in prison, Dr. Marzouki continued to be the target of official persecution. His professional activities as a physician were blocked, and members of his family were threatened and harassed. He was placed under intense surveillance and his ability to travel was restricted. Nevertheless he continued to demand respect for human rights in Tunisia as the spokesperson of the National Committee for Liberties in Tunisia (CNLT), which was forced to operate as a clandestine organization. In December 2001, Dr. Marzouki took up a teaching position in Paris for one year. From France he is free to participate in public debate about human rights in Tunisia and the Arab World, but he plans to return to his country to continue the struggle for human rights.

Dr. Marzouki was in the United States to receive an award from the American Academy for the Advancement of Science for his human rights work. During Dr. Marzouki's visit, President Ben Ali announced his intention to amend the Constitution to enable him to run for a fourth term in office. Ironically, having come to power ostensibly to free Tunisia from the abuses of office of president for life Habib Bourguiba, Ben Ali appears to be preparing the same unaccountable position for himself. From 1987 until today, the situation in Tunisia has come full circle, from one authoritarian leader to another .

MM:  "After September 11 it is an impossible task to be a human rights advocate in the Arab world. It appears that Western policy is to support dictatorship in the region. Repressive Arab governments are backed by Western governments to secure oil supplies, to ensure a ready market for arms supplies, and in the name of creating 'open markets.' For human rights activists, this is a disaster. Our natural ally, the democratic West, supports our worst enemies."

Human Rights First: What accounts for the anti-Western sentiment of much public opinion in the Arab world?

MM: "Public opinion in the Arab world is outraged by what it sees as Western double-standards in policies towards Israel and the suffering of the Iraqi people, and by the West's apparent indifference to our problems. I was saddened when I saw that some people in Tunisia took some satisfaction from the September 11 attacks. They said that it was good that the American people would now understand what we have suffered. We told them that the attacks were a terrible crime, and that this injustice would be heaped on top of all the others solving nothing. There is a dangerous polarization in attitudes and some people try to take advantage of tensions between the West and the Arab world. As human rights advocates, we believe in universal values. We don't ascribe to dangerous theories about the clash of civilizations. Our role as human rights defenders, wherever we are, is to be a bridge between civilizations, to defuse conflict.

We try to tell people that there is no such thing as 'The West.' We may have problems with some policies of Western governments, but we have excellent relations with many Western non-governmental organizations. There are good elements in Western societies and bad elements, just like in our own. The West is not a monolith."

Human Rights First: What kinds of policies would you like to see Western governments adopting towards governments in the Middle East?

MM: "When Western leaders looks at us they see a problem, the problem of terrorism. We have the same problem. People in Algeria and Egypt have suffered much more from terrorism than the Americans have. We have a shared interest in resolving this problem. We would like to see the West treating the root causes of the problem, not just the symptoms. I am a physician so I speak in medical terms. When someone has a fever you don't just pour iced water on his head, you find the disease and try to cure it. For this problem of terrorism a military response alone will not resolve it. We also have to look at the root causes: at poverty, ignorance, lack of opportunity and corrupt, oppressive governments.

Western policy towards the Arab World has focused too much on short-term stability and ignored the long-term consequences of leaving millions of people to live under dictatorships."

Human Rights First: What can human rights activists based in the West do to help human rights defenders in the Arab World?

MM: "The rays of hope for the future in terms of relations between the West and the Arab world are the positive relationships that exist at the level of civil society. Our friends in organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Human Rights First are our great allies. It's very important that people come from the West to be with us in Tunisia and other countries. Activists on the ground feel supported, and we can demonstrate to our societies that not everyone in the West is a supporter of dictatorship.

The relationship between our governments and the Western powers is one of dependency, but when we meet as non-governmental organizations we meet as equals.

With support from international groups, as an activist in a country like Tunisia, you feel supported, you can resist oppression. Solidarity is very important.

Finally, we shouldn't forget that dictators have a weakness. They are very sensitive about their public image. In democratic countries you can say what you like about your leaders, and nothing will happen to you. If I wanted to criticize President Bush, I could, and nothing would happen to me. Dictators can't stand to hear criticism, especially abroad. Its our job to make sure that they hear plenty of criticism, wherever they go."

Human Rights First: What accounts for the lack of progress towards democratization and respect for human rights in many Arab countries?

MM: "That is of course the key question. Is it because we Arabs are genetically inclined towards dictatorship? I cannot accept that kind of determinist argument. We have seen democracy and human rights make progress in much of the world in the last thirty years, and with it has come economic and social development. But we have not moved forward. Instead of progress we have dictatorship and corruption. Out of this disaster has come terrorism and extremism.

I ask myself this question all the time. Maybe in Latin America and Eastern Europe there was only one alternative to despotism, and that was democracy. In our countries we have had a third alternative, the political Islamic movement, which has been a kind of distraction. In some cases, in Iran or Sudan, Islamism has meant replacing one kind of dictatorship with another. It has been a blind alley. But it is not so simple.

Islamism is a very broad phenomenon. There are very extreme examples, like the Taliban or the GIA in Algeria, and there are also movements like An-Nahda in Tunisia, which is much more moderate. We have spoken with An-Nahda and they have told us that they believe fully in democracy and human rights. They are interested in seeing a government that acknowledges and reflects our Muslim cultural heritage. We don't have a problem with that. But we have to be careful. Many people in our countries are uneducated. If they hear someone using the language of religion, then they will be inclined to go along with them, regardless of what their policies might be."

Human Rights First: What are your hopes for the future of Tunisia?

MM: "We think that under President Ben Ali Tunisia has lost a great opportunity. We could have been the first true Arab democracy. We have an educated population, a strong middle-class. We don't have racial, ethnic or religious tensions. Sometimes we are told that we are doing better than Algeria, or Libya, but we don't want to compare ourselves with others. We think of what we might have been, if we hadn't been led into a dictatorship for the last twelve years.

We still hope that Tunisia can be an example for the region. Our problem is not just with individuals suffering persecution. This has become a game that the authorities play with us. They go after Nejib Hosni, or Hamma Hammami or Mohammed Mo'adda or me, and we all rally round to defend those people. In the meantime nothing changes. Our challenge is to transform the structure of power in Tunisia away from corruption and dictatorship towards democracy and accountability. That is our goal for the future."